Porque Java apesta y C# mola
He programado en Java durante toda mi carrera profesional. He utilizado otros lenguajes como C o ensamblador, y uso HTML, JavaScript o SQL en mi día a día como todo hijo de vecino pero, al final, mi confort zone siempre ha sido el territorio de James Gosling y Duke.
He de reconocer que, hasta hace poco, era un relativo fanboy de java pero, cada día soy más agnóstico respecto al lenguaje y me interesa más el producto; lo que, traducido a cristiano, significa que me da igual como esté hecho algo, lo importante es las funcionalidades que implemente y, por supuesto, que esté bien hecho.
Y en este estado de las cosas, ha caído en mis manos una maravillosa presentación de Jeffrey Zhao titulada “Porque Java apesta y C# mola”. El texto es imprescindible, lo mires por donde lo mires. No sólo porque supone una comparativa técnica y científica que rebosa calidad por todos los lados, sino porque detrás de un título de apariencia troll, se esconde una reflexión realista y desapasionada en la que no se aprecia fanatismo alguno.
Pero lo más importante de todo es que Jeffrey Zhao SE MOJA. Es de agradecer que alguien tome posición, la argumente y sea lo suficientemente valiente como para hacerla pública y, a lo torero, pedir réplica a la misma con la frase “contacta conmigo, muéstrame tu idea… y pruébala” proporcionando su blog, correo y cuenta de twitter. Ahí es nada.
Por si fuera poco, las diapositivas están salpicadas de frases memorables y un fino humor que es difícil de encontrar en un texto técnico. Me ha encantado la reflexión “si la JVM es la máquina, los byte codes son el código máquina y programar en Java… es como programar en ensamblador ¿De verdad quieres programar en ensamblador?”. Sencillamente, brillante.
El texto finaliza con una reflexión: ni siquiera nos pide que cambiemos de plataforma, entendiendo como plataforma la JVM, sino que pregunta ¿Por qué no utilizar otros lenguajes más poderosos a nivel de sintaxis y que se pueden utilizar dentro de la JVM como Scala, Ruby (JRuby) o Python (Jhyton)?
Qué grande es Jeffrey Zhao y qué grande es esta presentación. Tengo el orgullo de presentárosla aquí:
La conclusión a la que llego después de haber leído la presentación es que Jeffrey, como tantos otros, no nos está pidiendo a los que venimos del mundo Java que abandonemos la JVM ni la potencia de todo el mundo de librerías que hay detrás de ella, sino que probemos otros lenguajes que se pueden ejecutar en la misma.
¿Realmente merece la pena hacerlo cuando desgraciadamente hay un alto porcentaje de programadores a los que les suena a chino la mayoría de las cosas de las que habla Jeffrey? Bueno… depende. Si formas parte de una maligna megacorporación, puede que no, pero, si eres miembro de un pequeño y altamente productivo equipo de desarrollo…, a lo mejor el hecho de utilizar un lenguaje donde poder ordenar un array pasando la lógica de ordenación como parámetro, en vez de implementando una clase Comparator, marca la diferencia.
Voy a echarle un vistazo a Scala…
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395 respuestas a “Porque Java apesta y C# mola”
Hola:
Creo que algo importante es no ser intransigente (respecto al software o cualquier otro tema). No considerar algo razonable o justo porque no es lo que tu crees no significa que merezca tu rechazo y en muchas ocasiones desprecio. Ser "experto" en tu tecnología, simplemente te da los conocimientos para trabajar de modo mas cómodo, pero no significa que en la puerta de al lado tengas algo fantástico por descubrir y que pueda ser otra solucion a tus problemas.
[...] Porque Java apesta y C# mola sixservix.com/blog/david/2010/06/30/porque-java-apesta-y-c-s… por david.bonilla.fuertes hace 3 segundos [...]
¿Grande? ¿Humor fino? Será que tengo el listón un poco más alto :). Programo en Java desde hace muucho, JDK 1.0.2, pero uso y he usado muchos otros lenguajes habitualmente, y no es por que sea en contra de Java, pero es que los discursitos fanboy me dan repelús de cualquiera de los dos campos. Recuerdo cuando Java era lo nuevo y había presentaciones de estas de "por qué cambiar a Java?" igual de tergiversadas y me daban la misma tirria si no más.
En la relación FUD/datos interesantes, le daria un 80/20. Decepcionante.
Dejando muy pero que muy clarito que es mi opinión personal e intransferible y nadie tiene por que estar ni minimamente de acuerdo. Pero esta es la mía, que le voy a hacer.
Jajaja… el gran GreenEyed azote de fanboys y trolls… pero, en este caso, ¿Has leído BIEN toda la presentación?
A lo mejor tu tienes el listón muy alto y yo soy medio trolorolo pero, la conclusión que se saca del powerpoint es que la JVM es una GRAN plataforma pero Java, como lenguaje, tiene menos features que muchos otros como, por ejemplo, C#. Ni más ni menos.
En la diapo 7 tienes una declaración de intenciones sobre lo que NO pretende conseguir con la presentación y ya deja clarito que:
- No quiere convencer de que .NET sea mejor que JVM como plataforma
- No quiere que uses C# en vez de Java
- No quiere que abandones Java
Pero va dando datos, SUS datos, sobre características del lenguaje -ojo, sólo del lenguaje- que le hacen afirmar que C# es superior.
En este caso, GreenEyed -desde la admiración y el respeto que te tengo como técnico- tengo que darle la razón a Jerry. Si crees que lo que dice no es cierto, si crees que java como lenguaje tiene un conjunto de características que lo hacen superior a C#, Scala, Ruby o ensamblador para programar submarinos, contesta con una presentación demostrandolo punto por punto. Seguro que será enriquecedor para la comunidad :)
Desde YA te digo que yo no conozco tan en profundidad dos lenguajes como para poder posicionarme en un sentido o en otro, así que en este caso, disfrutaré de vuestros conocimientos desde la barrera.
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Bubbl Scala Feed, Hector Martinez. Hector Martinez said: "Porqué #Java apesta y C# mola" >> http://bit.ly/bLPbEA /by @david_bonilla & @jeffz_cn :: apto para dba's.. interesados en el "otro lado" =) [...]
Salta a la vista que tanto el autor de la presentación como tú, sois grandes expertos programadores. Pero también se hace evidente que carecéis de experiencia y conocimiento en lo que respecta al diseño de una arquitectura o la realidad de los proyectos para los que trabajamos la gran mayoría de los profesionales, ya sea en Java, C#, VB, etc.
Resulta muy triste que se pueda afirmar con tanta soberbia y altanería que una tecnología apesta con respecto a otra por la sintaxis del lenguaje.
Hola lector. Perdona si te contesto tan duramente, como jamás lo he hecho en este blog pero hombre… que invites a alguien a tu casa y encima te insulte, no es muy de recibo. Aqui parece que poner cualquier tontería en los comentarios sale gratis.
Lo que realmente salta a la vista es que ni te has leído el artículo ni la presentación. O peor aún, no los has entendido. Ninguna de las dos afirma que una tecnología es superior a la otra.
No tengo ni idea de la trayectoria profesional de Jeffrey Zhao pero, te puedo decir que tengo "algo" de experiencia en arquitecturas de gran escala. No es cuestión de ver quien tiene el pene más largo pero me gustaría compararla con la tuya.
Por último un pequeño disclaimer: no he programado una linea de C# en mi vida y soy más javero que James Gosling.
Por favor querido lector, intenta leer bien las cosas antes de opinar sobre ellas y ponerte en evidencia…
Se nota que eres fanático
te duele que critiquen a Java
no te diferencias en nada de un fanático religioso.
No me gustaría tener a alguien como tu trabajando en mi empresa, en mi empresa contratamos a gente de mente abierta.
Buenas,
antes de nada animar a David para que siga con este tipo de post, que creo (desde mi humilde opinión) tienen contenido interesante y además generan discusión, no hay nada más sano (si se hace correctamente). Ahora, seré sincero, no me he leído la totalidad de los comentarios pero si he visto la presentación entera y me hago una idea de por donde van los tiros. Lo único que quiero señalar es, siguiendo como se ha dicho anteriormente, la idea central de todo esto es la JVM. Sea el título del post más o menos "provocador", pero así es David ;) por mi parte he entendido que el mensaje central no es una posición de poder de lenguajes, sino una posición de apoyo al uso de JVM independiente de Java, potenciando otros tipos de lenguajes que permitan igualar la calidad que pudiera dar C# con su sintaxis (si, habéis leído, la presentación habla muy bien de C#, no al contrario).
Personalmente, mi posición es la misma que el autor de la presentación, si algo bueno ha traído Java a este mundo es la JVM (porque todos sabemos que Java puede llegar a ser "pesado y feo de cojones" – perdón por la expresión). Si por algo quiero apostar desde hace un tiempo es por usar otro tipo de lenguajes, sobre todo tenemos JRuby y Groovy que más conozco y Scala que está dando fuerte (si ponemos la lista de la gente que lo usa/apoya…).
Un saludo
PD: Por decir esto o haber entendido la presentación/post "a mi manera" no significa la tenga más grande, simplemente la tengo como la tengo :)
¿Por qué discutir por el lenguaje pudiendo discutir por los service buses y los frameworks? (Léase con ironía)
Lo que quiero decir es que los que pensáis que la expresividad del lenguaje no es importante a la hora de programar es porque no tenéis ni idea de programar (perdón, de PROGRAMAR). Seguro que tenéis todo tipo de experiencias con bugzillas, mantis, trac y todos los bugtrackers del mundo. ¿Acaso no os habéis dado cuenta que la gran mayoría de problemas que tenemos es que no sabemos hacer la "o" con un canuto cuando se trata de programar? (Independientemente del lenguaje)
Os reto a demostrar lo bien que programáis. Cuando queráis, por ejemplo en el grupo agilista de Madrid. http://sites.google.com/site/agilemadrid
¿Sois capaces de enseñar, orgullosos, vuestro código? Pues eso.
¡Ah! Que no se me olvide. Echad un vistazo a esta estupenda presentación que David Calavera nos dió no hace mucho aquí en Madrid. http://jruby-training.heroku.com
Curioso, yo mismo humilde programador java, lo he maldecido una y mil veces y no hago mas que subrayar las virtudes de mi lenguaje favorito (que por cierto no has mencionado :-P ) clojure, pero al ver la presentacion no se por que me inclino por la respuesta de greeneyed en defensa del venerable primer lenguaje de la jvm.
Java tarde o temprano pasara a ser el "c" (que no el ensamblador) de la jvm. Siempre sera la forma de conseguir exprimir la jvm y ciertamente es mas sencillo que c (y menor rapido tambien claro)
Y eso sera mas bien tarde porque java sigue cumpliendo su mision de ser un lenguaje pensado para ser entendido facilmente sin tener ser un hacker y pensado para que un principante o alguien mediocre no cometa demasiados errores a costa de perder potencia, expresividad y flexibilidad.
Un lenguaje perfecto para las empresas que no quieren pagar programadores de calidad sino coger, a golpe de infojobs, puñados de recien titulados y arrojarlos a los proyectos para sacarlos adelante. ¡ Que no quiere decir que programadores geniales no hayan usado y usen java y haya excelente codigo escrito en el mismo !
Pero como dice el autor si tu negocio se basa en grupos de pequeños programadores altamente cualificados java tal vez se quede demasiado corto, ramplon y burocratico y sobre todo… aburrido.
PD: Pero vamos en cuanto a la presentacion,si aun lo hubiera comparado con F#… me sale lo de le dijo la sarten al cazo
@Carlos:
Por favor muestra pruebas de lo que has dicho contra GreenEyed porque si no lo haces, entonces no habrás dicho nada.
Hombre… yo no creo que GreenEyed sea un fanático. Como mucho… alguien muy vehemente :)
Eso si, yo no he visto muchas de las cosas que el aprecia en la presentación ("prepotencia", "amarillismo", "insultante", etc…) pero quizás es que soy demasiado naiv… :P
Tampoco juzgaría la calidad de un texto de alguien en base a que haya trabajado 2 o 20 años con un lenguaje. Hay gente que lleva 10 años trabajando con java y son auténticos zoquetunos y gente que lleva 30 años programando en 10 lenguajes diferentes y que no necesita otros 30 para darnos sopas con ondas y saber lo que le puede pedir a un lenguaje.
En cualquier caso, a mi lo que me gustaría es que GreenEyed o quien sea rebatiera punto por punto y de una perspectiva puramente técnica y no interpretativa lo que se debate en la presentación.
A mi, por ejemplo, me da igual que C# tenga cosas que Java no tiene porque salió más tarde y pudieron "pensarlo más".
Ej. Lo que cuentan en la diapositiva 28 es verdad ¿si o no? Y si no lo es ¿se puede demostrar? Creo que es lo único que pide el figura de Zhao.
Eso si, una última concesión a GreenEyed… el título de la presentación -y, por extensión el del artículo- es MARKETINIANO DE TODO A 100 y… ¿sabéis que ¿Me encanta… :)
A mi me da bastante igual todo, pero voy a comentar un detalle que me parece claramente erróneo. Decir que "Si la JVM es la máquina y el bytecode es el código máquina, entonces Java es el ensamblador" es una comparación que no tiene ni pies ni cabeza. Si admitiéramos ese argumento, ¿entonces C# es el ensamblador de .Net? ¿VB3 se debería considerar ensamblador porque se compilaba a pcode?
El ensamblador es algo muy concreto y se puede decir que Java no sea de tan alto nivel como [inserte aquí usted su lenguaje preferido de alto nivel] pero de ahí a decir que sea como el ensamblador hay mucho camino. Más aún, la parte realmente ridícula es que decir eso se considere "un argumento".
En parte estoy con GreenEyed (quizá no tan radicalmente porque a mi me importa menos, ya lo he dicho xD), no le veo mucho humor fino. De todos modos, lo que más triste me parece es que realmente esto se consideren como "buenas argumentaciones". Java tiene pegas importantes, en mi modesta opinión. Y hay algunos detalles interesantes en la presentación, no lo dudo, pero, en conjunto, cojea demasiado.
Oh ¡Venga Venkman! No caigamos todos en lo mismo… lo de comparar Java y ensamblador es una rajada del 15… pero ni se me ha pasado por la cabeza de que sea una comparación REAL por parte del autor.
Lo único que viene a decir es "creo que hay otros lenguajes de más 'alto nivel' en la JVM".
Y por favor, no me hagáis posicionarme en contra o a favor de la presentación. De mi artículo deberías extraer que me gusta que Zhao diga ALGO. Algo concreto… y que le ponga nombre y apellidos y se atreva a pedir que ALGUIEN demuestre lo contrario.
La verdad es que el tío tiene un par, lo mínimo que se merece es una presentación similar, no un "en conjunto, cojea demasiado" ¿no crees?
Un saludo y gracias por comentar. Se te echaba de menos :)
Bueno, nunca he hecho nada en C# así que supongo que no puedo comparar ambos lenguajes. De todas formas, veo en la presentación algunos puntos que no me gustan.
Por un lado, dice "que si la JVM es la máquina, los bytecodes son el código máquina….. ¿quieres programar en ensamblador?". Creo que se me escapa algo. ¿No se puede aplicar exactamente el mismo razonamiento a todos los demás lenguajes que aconseja usar como JRuby, Scala o Jython?. Es más, que yo sepa el compilado de C# también va sobre una máquina virtual ¿CLR?, así que, ¿no vale el mismo razonamiento para C#?. Y es más todavía, si no hay máquina virtual y se compila generando código máquina nativo … ¿no se puede aplicar el mismo razonamiento?. En fin, me parece un "razonamiento" un poco traído por los pelos.
En cuanto a la sintaxis de java, efectivamente, puede ser un poco pesada a veces y hay que escribir más líneas para hacer lo mismo que en otros lenguajes. Pero, ¿cuánto tiempo se pierde en codificar de nuevo y cuánto en depurar o entender código ya escrito?. Es mucho mejor un lenguaje cuya sintaxis sea clara que uno que haga muchas cosas con pocas líneas y no haya quien lo entienda (pienso en perl :-P no en C#). Así que a la hora de medir cómo la sintaxis de un lenguaje influye en la velocidad de desarrollo, no debería mirarse el número de líneas a escribir, sino la claridad de las mismas.
En fin, que la presentación me hace la impresión de que es un poco partidista.
Se bueno.
Hombre… A ver, entiendo lo que dices, David. Pero es que no sólo cuenta la intención o la actitud. Puede gustarte la actitud de Zhao, y no me parece mal, pero se puede alabar la actitud siendo consciente también de que la implementación real no es tan buena. ¿La 57 también es "de broma"? Que sí, que sí, que en determinadas cosas tiene razón, soy el primero en aceptarlo, pero con los altibajos la presentación deja de ser todo lo "redonda" que podría fácilmente haber sido.
Salta a la vista que no sabes entender lo que lees, así que tranquilo que no acabaré en tu empresa. Ni tu en la mía, si es que tuviera ganas.
Te lo explicaría pero si no lo has entendido ya, es perder el tiempo.
Joer con la ordenación de los comentarios. Obviamente me refería al comentario de Carlos, no al tuyo David ;).
***quote*** el título de la presentación -y, por extensión el del artículo- es MARKETINIANO DE TODO A 100 y… ¿sabéis que ¿Me encanta… :) ***quote***
Esto es precisamente lo que quería decir. Que sí, que C# tiene cosas mucho mejores mirando únicamente el lenguaje, que en Java hay muchas muchas cagadas acumuladas con los años, joer que ahora programo casi más en Groovy que en Java… pero yo simplemente digo que como presentación y argumentaciones no me parecen ni humor fino ni argumentos brillantes. Ni de lejos.
Quizá sea mi alergia al márketin… creo que me debí caer dentro de una marmita de pequeño :).
Cultura general, posible encontrar en http://msdn.microsoft.com
.Net Framework tiene dos componentes principales:
CLR: motor en tiempo de ejecución, ejecuta lo que se denomina como código administrado y lo hace para tener una seguridad sobre el código, y la compilación. Para mantener la solidez del código utiliza CTS(Common Type System) que garantiza que todo el código administrado sea auto descriptivo.
Biblioteca de Clases: colección de objetos reutilizables.
El proceso de trabajo de compilación es el siguiente:
1.- Se selecciona compilador: dependiendo del lenguaje empleado, C#, VB, F#, etc. Al estar preparado para un entorno multilenguaje, el compilador se encarga de que el lenguaje cumpla con CLS(Common Language Specification).
2.- MSIL: Lenguaje intermedio, Microsoft Intermediate Language, son un conjunto de instrucciones independientes de la máquina que lo pueden convertir a código nativo. ES decir, que cuando se compila a código administrado, el compilador pasa de código maquina a MSIL.
3.-JIT: Compilador Just In Time, es el encargado de convertir el MSIL a código nativo.
4.-Ejecución del código:CLR proporciona la infraestructura para permitir la ejecución administrada de el código.
Y a disfrutar y aprender de todas las posibilidades que tenemos.
Tranquilo… lo había entendido perfectamente :P
Sinceramente, estoy un poco disgustado de en que está derivándose todo esto :(. A mi la presentación me parece buena porque pone argumentos y cachos de código para corroborarlos. No se si Jeffrey es un papanatas o el tío que programó el Apolo XIII pero, ha creado una presentación, la ha subido a Internet y la ha firmado con su nombre. Merece mi respeto.
Sabía que el post iba a generar polémica, QUERÍA generar polémica… pero esperaba respuesta en forma de otras presentaciones con el mismo estilo "Jeffrey, no tienes razón por esto, esto y esto y aquí está mi código para demostrarlo".
Atento al post de mañana… esta escrito DESDE EL SÁBADO… 3 o 4 días antes del de "Java apesta"
El Marketing no es ni bueno ni malo. Se utiliza mal o bien.
Yo era consciente del impacto del titular. El objetivo era generar polémica, conseguir comentarios de alto nivel. Creo que lo he conseguido, y tu presencia aquí es un ejemplo de ello.
No creo que haya sido algo maligno ni perjudicial para la Comunidad. Más bien al contrario.
Eso si… me quedaré con resquemor por la deriva que han ido tomando los comentarios si no veo una GreenEyed Presentation que se llame "Dear Jeffrey…" ;)
Yo sí tengo experiencia con ambos (Java y C#). Ciertamente, a nivel de lenguaje C# es más potente, no creo que sea necesario enumerar aquí las diferencias. Pero si yo fuera director técnico de una empresa optaría antes por Java que por C#, simplemente para no encadenarme a Microsoft (pagar licencias de SO, IDE… y actualizaciones periódicas cada vez que decida dejar de dar soporte a las versiones de sus productos), y no me digas que tenemos a Mono ahí, porque precisamente es el primero que va a la deriva de Microsoft: si algún día Microsoft se va al cuerno o deja de innovar en C#, ¿qué va a hacer Mono?
Primero de todo, que quede clarito,
¡¡¡¡¡¡ SI C# ES UN LENGUAJE MÁS AVANZADO QUE JAVA !!!!!
¿Por qué?
1) Porque hay UNA SOLA EMPRESA detrás del mismo que puede hacer lo que le de la gana al ritmo que le de la gana, rompiendo la compatibilidad hacia atrás lo que le de la gana.
2) Porque la cántidad de código basado en C# por el mundo es ordenes de magnitud menor que el de Java, por no hablar de aplicaciones críticas (por ejemplo bancos) en donde C# parece que brilla por su ausencia.
Dicho esto estoy con GreenEyed en algunas cosas (no en su conocida vehemencia), voy a intentar no repetirme:
1) El argumento de que Java no es "puro orientado a objetos" es una chorrada como un piano, PURO != BUENO, es una gran cagada el usar sintaxis Java 1.4 para luego reconocer que ya no es necesaria esa sintaxis en 1.5, no me parece honesto, el mejor marketing es aquel que trata de ser honesto.
2) Lo de que Java copia a C# es un argumento malo, malo, C# en su origen es una copia de Java y los genéricos fueron ya inventados en C++ hace un porrón de años y los closures no son un invento de C#, los autores de Java eran programadores de C++ y en su cabeza siempre rondó la idea de los "templates" C++, dicen que no los metieron porque no eran necesarios, yo creo que era mentira, simplemente no los metieron en la 1.0 porque el trabajo que daría lugar sería enorme. Luego la compatibilidad hacia atrás ha obligado a meter los generics que todos conocemos.
3) Lo de que Java es el ensamblador de la JVM es otra chorrada como un piano
4) Lo de que las anotaciones no le gustan y por que no le gustan son malas es una argumentación muy mala.
Sin estos cuatro puntos lamentables que dejan bastante mal al autor, el documento sería mucho mucho mejor.
Al final el resumen de la "gran" superioridad de C# se resume en:
1) Los primitivos son también objetos: buff me da bastante igual
2) C# tiene closures de las buenas: vaaaale, pero el autor mismo se encarga de mostrar que puedes hacer lo mismo con clases anónimas escribiendo un poco más (desde Java v1.1), y sin quitas genéricos menos aún. Lo curioso es que el autor parece querer hacernos creer que sin closures puras no puedes hacer programación funcional o usar APIs fluidas y luego acto seguido nos muestra un ejemplo en Java que es prácticamente igual… es desconcertante. Umm ¿esto de las closures no aumenta el grado de ilegibilidad del código?
3) Tiene una mejor implementación de generics sin type erasure: bueeeno.
4) Tiene inferencia de tipos en algunos casos: bueeeno un nombre de tipo menos para aumentar el grado de ilegibilidad.
¿Algo más? porque el punto 1 me da igual, el punto 2 sólo implica escribir un poco menos a costa de menor claridad, el punto 3 no suele ser muy problemático en usos convencionales de los generics y el 4 para mi es casi una mala práctica…
A lo mejor me dejo algo más importante.
El que faltaba. ¡¡¡ El maligno Dr. Arranz !!! Menos mal que no es usted vehemente… ;)
Es que entonces sería "El maligno y vehemente Dr. Arranz" ;)
Respecto a la programación funcional, hay que ser prudentes porque podemos ser víctimas de las modas, la programación funcional típica aplicada bucles suele ser algo así:
coleccion.forEach(miFuncOClosureParaCadaItem)
De hecho Java en la clase Collections ya tiene algunas cosas de este tipo con comportamientos concretos, y cualquiera puede hacerse una especie de función forEach que reciba una instancia de una clase anónima implementando una interface en plan HacerAlgoConMiItem, vale no es una closure pero es casi lo mismo.
El infierno viene en los detalles y es cuando queremos control de flujo, es decir, si paramos en algún momento o procesamos sólo los pares etc y el objeto/función/closure de proceso de cada item no se lleva bien con el control de flujo, habría que pensar en devolver una especie de boolean para parar o continuar, que el proceso del item tuviera en cuenta lo que ha pasado a otros etc, por no hablar de que supone una violación del principio de una única responsabilidad.
En conclusión: el forEach mola pero conviene que tengas la posibilidad de hacer una iteración alternativa cuando sea necesario.
Como ejemplo de ésto, no hay más que comparar dos ejemplos de código XSLT: http://bit.ly/784hMO Imperativo http://bit.ly/8LniMV Funcional/declarativo
(no son ejemplos 100% equivalentes pero no he encontrado otros)
La pregunta es ¿qué versión permite mayor control y es la más clara? solución: la imperativa.
Con esto no quiero decir que sea mejor la imperativa, en la versión funcional hay mayor reutilización de código y responsabilidad.
Lo mejor casi siempre es el mestizaje: se imperativo en los algoritmos no obvios, se funcional cuando puedas encapsular claramente una funcionalidad sobre todo si se reutiliza múltiples veces. En el ejemplo XSLT se echa de menos la mezcla imperativa/funcional mezclando foreach y templates para el proceso de cada item.
Acá hay más fanatismo de los de Java que análisis
[...] [...]
Es cierto, C# tiene características potentes pero en sintaxis es muy similar a Java, de hecho son hermanos (tienen el mismo padre ¿no?) y los que no han programado en c# no saben lo (supremamente) fácil que es pasar de un lenguaje a otro. Creo que tienen mas similitudes que diferencias (y estoy de acuerdo en que c# destaca). Si como programador quieres dar un salto de productividad o un aire de renovación me quedo con el mensaje de Zhao de usar lenguajes como jRuby y/o IronRuby.
Me temo que hemos sido victimas de la moda de la programacion imperativa durante tantos años (cincuenta mas o menos) que nos parece "natural","obvia" y "clara", cuando no es mas que una forma mas de ver la programacion con sus ventajas y sus inconvenientes. Una forma de verla mas de "bajo nivel" cercana al ensamblador o c y al manejo directo de la memoria del ordenador y de un programa como una secuencia de setencias. La funcional esta mucho mas cercana a la vision matematica-algoritmica de la programacion.
Las diferencias entre la programacion declarativa y funcional es algo mucho mas amplio y no creo que un ejemplo de su aplicacion a los bucles clarifique mucho (y encima xslt!!!!)
Desde mi punto de vista la programacion declarativa es un paso adelante en la programacion, aunque no sustituira a la oop nunca totalmente, igual que la oop nunca sustituyo a la estructurada y ahi tenemos el ensamblador, c y cobol ejerciendo su papel.
Ese es el problema de los lenguajes con mucho codigo y mucha presencia "enterprise" que se estancan ya que los errores de diseño se enquistan y las posibles mejoras son dificiles de añadir y de añadirlas bien sin sufrir esos errores de diseño y crear algunos nuevos. Todo por la bendita compatabilidad ..y asi tiene que ser hay demasiado dinero en juego para andarse con tonterias para cuatro programadores aburridos :-P
Fijate lo bien que la ido a cobol asi en plan quieto en la mata que todavia hay una cantidad de codigo de la leche.
Eso si de cara al futuro habra que ir pensando asi poco a poco y sin prisas en coger una alternativa que huela menos a apolillado no?
El otro dia un programdor de cobol me decia lo raro y complicado que era java .. me decia si cobol es lo mas claro del mundo, si sabes ingles sabes cobol! :-P
Un ejemplo en haskell del concido algoritmo de backtracking para explorar un arbol
Para mi mas claro de la conocida version en java/c/c#
backtracking :: (t -> Bool) -> (t -> [t]) -> t -> [t]
backtracking isSolution explore node
| isSolution node = [node]
| otherwise = concatMap
(backtracking isSolution explore)
(explore node)
isSolution es la funcion que valida si un nodo del arbol es solucion al problema y explore es la funcion que crea los nodos hijos a partir de uno dado
precioso verdad?
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Como no puedo editar me corrijo ya que dije "las diferencias entre a programacion declarativa y funcional" cuando seria entre la declarativa y la imperativa.
Y el codigo en haskell va a ser que le suene a chino a muchos lectores pero no es mas que decirle al ordenador que es lo que quieres y no como. La "traduccion" directa seria:
La firma de la funcion: backtracking :: (t -> Bool) -> (t -> [t]) -> t -> [t] -> "Siendo backtracking una funcion con tres parametros y t un tipo cualquiera: el primer parametro (t->Bool) es una funcion que transforma un elem de tipo t en un booleano, el segundo parametro (t -> [t]) es otra funcion que transforma un elemento de tipo t en una lista de t's [t] y el tercer parametro de tipo t es el nodo inicial, nos devuelve una lista de t's"
La implementacion seria: "Si el nodo es una solucion al problema devuelvelo como una lista con él como unico elemento, si no es una solucion, vuelve a aplicar (con concatMap) la funcion backTracking a todos los hijos del nodo generados con la funcion (explore node)"
La trampa es que es en los algoritmos donde la programacion declarativa brilla mas ;-)
"hemos sido victimas de la moda de la programacion imperativa durante tantos años"
No creo que sea una moda, es la solución más obvia y más clara, no te digo que sea la mejor, yo soy un obsesivo por la reutilización de código y la programación funcional ofrece más oportunidades de reutilización de código que la imperativa, por otra parte yo no veo que sea una "alternativa" a la OOP, no es más que un estilo de programación que se puede llevar genial con la OOP pues de hecho nadie obliga a que un objeto tenga atributos, yo mismo tengo clases de servicio sin atributos con herencias y métodos que se llaman entre sí en diferentes niveles, es decir, mezcla de OOP y programación funcional (¿objetos funcionales?) .
Lo de que es más obvia y clara la programación imperativa… creeme, es cierto, lo constato todos los días, doy clase en la universidad de fundamentos de programación a gente que no ha hecho una línea de código en su vida, y la recursividad (tu ejemplo es un ejemplo de recursividad) les cuesta horrores a los alumnos respecto a la solución alternativa iterativa (con bucles) y si no les dices nada prácticamente nadie te hace una solución recursiva en problemas que admiten esta forma. Es como si el cerebro viniera iterativo/imperativo de serie y hubiera que moldearlo para hacerlo más funcional, es como si el mantra "reutiliza, reutiliza, reutiliza" te hiciera más funcional.
Bueno lo de moda era ironico, una moda de 50 años esta claro que no lo es :-P (sin embargo lisp fue uno de los primeros lenguajes, creado a la vez que el bisabuelo de java fortran)
Me temo que he visto mas codigo en java mezclando codigo oop con estructurado o con espaghetti que con aproximaciones funcionales. Tambien he oido defensas de la programacion estructurada o en plan churro diciendo que era mas clara y es cierto desde el punto de vista de alguien que mira el codigo de arriba a abajo y en cuanto ve una llamada a un procedimiento ya se lia, no digamos ya si va al metodo y ve "abstract MyInterface miMetodo (Map miMapa);"
El esfuerzo de la progresiva abstraccion espaghetti->estructurada->oop->funcional creo que merece totalmente la pena si estas dispuesto a iniciar el viaje. Y java sirve hasta un punto determinado de ese viaje, ya en la oop chirria muchas veces y funcionalmente es un desastre: los datos no son inmutables por defecto, no tiene evaluacion perezosa, la funciones no son objetos de primera clase, no se pueden componer ni invertir, el sistema de tipado es anemico, etcetc. Pero vamos c# mas de lo mismo.
Pero vamos que tiene otras virtudes que le hacen perfecto y productivo para segun que proyectos, empresas y negocios. Si hay dinero por medio hay que ser pragmatico y olvidar tus preferencias personales y cuestiones como la elegancia o lo divertido de tu trabajo diario.
La discusion de si lo "imperativo" esta dentro de la naturaleza humana daria para muchos comentarios en plan filosoficos y tampoco es plan de romper el record de comentarios de este blog. Pero no me resisto a repetir un ejemplo que lei una vez sobre la obviedad de la programacion imperativa:
Cuando te enseñan matematicas en primaria
x=x+1 no es mas que una ecuacion que no tiene solucion 0=1
luego llegas a la clase de programacion y te dicen que no que la x de la izquierda contiene el valor posterior y el de la derecha el anterior, y el posterior es el anterior sumandole uno uf que lio no? :-P
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